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	<title>Comments on: Who needs MARC?</title>
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	<description>Library2.0 and beyond</description>
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		<title>By: Libology Blog &#187; Granularity and Relational</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-4933</link>
		<dc:creator>Libology Blog &#187; Granularity and Relational</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 02:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-4933</guid>
		<description>[...] clearing out old lists of post inspirations, I ran across a post on Commonplace.net that still gets my brain [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] clearing out old lists of post inspirations, I ran across a post on Commonplace.net that still gets my brain [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Commonplace.net blog &#171; The Cataloguing Librarian</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2910</link>
		<dc:creator>Commonplace.net blog &#171; The Cataloguing Librarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2910</guid>
		<description>[...] Who needs MARC? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Who needs MARC? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: wowter</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2241</link>
		<dc:creator>wowter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2241</guid>
		<description>Sometimes we need to make bold steps to move ahead, such as Google is trying with moving the SMTP (e-mail) protocol further by thinking anno 2009 with the introduction of Google Wave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes we need to make bold steps to move ahead, such as Google is trying with moving the SMTP (e-mail) protocol further by thinking anno 2009 with the introduction of Google Wave</p>
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		<title>By: Lukas Koster</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2240</link>
		<dc:creator>Lukas Koster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2240</guid>
		<description>When I decided, triggered by a conversation with some colleagues, to write a blog post about something that has been bothering me off and on since I first started working with library systems in 2003, I did not expect it to be picked up so widely. It has been cited and linked to in many different places. But the most surprising part to me is that MARC generates so many diverse, even emotional reactions.

It looks like a classic case of &quot;&lt;i&gt;If your not with us, you&#039;re against us&lt;/i&gt;&quot;. But I would like to try to reconcile both opposing parties anyway.

I have received a couple of other reactions outside of this blog as well, both on line (via twitter among others) and off line, and I had some conversations about MARC and PICA+ formats with colleagues. All this has been cause to refine my opinion slightly.

First, a couple of experienced cataloger colleagues have convinced me that PICA+ is not always better than MARC. Like always, both have their pros and cons, as undoubtedly will apply to the MARC-MAB relationship as well.

Second, I must thank my valued IGeLU colleague Michele Newberry for her very clear description of the historical circumstances of the birth of MARC and her experience of many years.
Michele says that it is not fair to judge MARC from today’s perspective only. And I have to admit that she is right. In the early days of MARC it was a very useful and efficient tool in the circumstances of those days.
She also emphasises that MARC was intended as a communications format, which was subsequently used as storage format by ILS vendors.
Michele concludes by saying that she would &quot;fully support a new communications format and discussion of how we get there&quot;. &quot;&lt;i&gt;I just wish we could do it without making MARC the enemy&lt;/i&gt;&quot;.
I hereby apologise to everybody who I may have offended by my attack on MARC. I have no intention of discrediting its usefulness in the past and  present.

However I stick with my opinion that in a digital web environment it is not an efficient storage and exchange format for bibliographic metadata anymore. We should aim at bringing about a new general efficient and flexible bibliographic format suitable for future developments. As far as I&#039;m concerned this could be &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;MARC22&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;.
MARC can be adapted, this has been done before. As an example: in 2003 a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.loc.gov/marc/marbi/2003/2003-03.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;proposal&lt;/a&gt; has been made to replace the &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;773 subfield g&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; tag by either a subfield &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;773$q&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;, or a new tag &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;363&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;, with subfields for all levels contained in the &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;773$g&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; subfield free-text string. Both options are available now. The &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;363&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; tag appears to have been accepted as &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/bd363.html&quot;  target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Normalized Date and Sequential Designation (R)&lt;/a&gt;&quot;. But as long as this new field is not used, it has no value. I expect that &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;AACR2&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; still does not require using &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;363&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;, but I am not an expert. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oclc.org/Support/documentation/worldcat/records/notimplemented/default.htm&quot;  target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;OCLC recently stated&lt;/a&gt; that implementation of &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;363&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; is &lt;i&gt;&quot;under consideration&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.

Someone pointed out to me recently, that all the problems associated with a massive migration by libraries around the world from MARC to something else, whatever it may be, will be avoided in the case that we all will migrate to one of the new &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_as_a_service&quot;  target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SaaS&lt;/a&gt; models of cataloguing (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.exlibrisgroup.com/category/URM_ResourceCenter&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ex Libris URM&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oclc.org/WorldCat/web/default.htm&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;OCLC WorlCat Web&lt;/a&gt;, etc.). We will see...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I decided, triggered by a conversation with some colleagues, to write a blog post about something that has been bothering me off and on since I first started working with library systems in 2003, I did not expect it to be picked up so widely. It has been cited and linked to in many different places. But the most surprising part to me is that MARC generates so many diverse, even emotional reactions.</p>
<p>It looks like a classic case of &#8220;<i>If your not with us, you&#8217;re against us</i>&#8220;. But I would like to try to reconcile both opposing parties anyway.</p>
<p>I have received a couple of other reactions outside of this blog as well, both on line (via twitter among others) and off line, and I had some conversations about MARC and PICA+ formats with colleagues. All this has been cause to refine my opinion slightly.</p>
<p>First, a couple of experienced cataloger colleagues have convinced me that PICA+ is not always better than MARC. Like always, both have their pros and cons, as undoubtedly will apply to the MARC-MAB relationship as well.</p>
<p>Second, I must thank my valued IGeLU colleague Michele Newberry for her very clear description of the historical circumstances of the birth of MARC and her experience of many years.<br />
Michele says that it is not fair to judge MARC from today’s perspective only. And I have to admit that she is right. In the early days of MARC it was a very useful and efficient tool in the circumstances of those days.<br />
She also emphasises that MARC was intended as a communications format, which was subsequently used as storage format by ILS vendors.<br />
Michele concludes by saying that she would &#8220;fully support a new communications format and discussion of how we get there&#8221;. &#8220;<i>I just wish we could do it without making MARC the enemy</i>&#8220;.<br />
I hereby apologise to everybody who I may have offended by my attack on MARC. I have no intention of discrediting its usefulness in the past and  present.</p>
<p>However I stick with my opinion that in a digital web environment it is not an efficient storage and exchange format for bibliographic metadata anymore. We should aim at bringing about a new general efficient and flexible bibliographic format suitable for future developments. As far as I&#8217;m concerned this could be <b><i>MARC22</i></b>.<br />
MARC can be adapted, this has been done before. As an example: in 2003 a <a href="http://www.loc.gov/marc/marbi/2003/2003-03.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">proposal</a> has been made to replace the <b><i>773 subfield g</i></b> tag by either a subfield <b><i>773$q</i></b>, or a new tag <b><i>363</i></b>, with subfields for all levels contained in the <b><i>773$g</i></b> subfield free-text string. Both options are available now. The <b><i>363</i></b> tag appears to have been accepted as &#8220;<a href="http://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/bd363.html"  target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Normalized Date and Sequential Designation (R)</a>&#8220;. But as long as this new field is not used, it has no value. I expect that <b><i>AACR2</i></b> still does not require using <b><i>363</i></b>, but I am not an expert. <a href="http://www.oclc.org/Support/documentation/worldcat/records/notimplemented/default.htm"  target="_blank" rel="nofollow">OCLC recently stated</a> that implementation of <b><i>363</i></b> is <i>&#8220;under consideration&#8221;</i>.</p>
<p>Someone pointed out to me recently, that all the problems associated with a massive migration by libraries around the world from MARC to something else, whatever it may be, will be avoided in the case that we all will migrate to one of the new <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_as_a_service"  target="_blank" rel="nofollow">SaaS</a> models of cataloguing (<a href="http://www.exlibrisgroup.com/category/URM_ResourceCenter" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Ex Libris URM</a>, <a href="http://www.oclc.org/WorldCat/web/default.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">OCLC WorlCat Web</a>, etc.). We will see&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Google bibliotheken en twitter overzicht mei 2009 &#171; Dee&#8217;tjes</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2237</link>
		<dc:creator>Google bibliotheken en twitter overzicht mei 2009 &#171; Dee&#8217;tjes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 20:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2237</guid>
		<description>[...] Catalogiseren met Marc?:  it does not matter how metadata is stored, as long as it is possible to get the data out of the database in any format appropriate for the occasion [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Catalogiseren met Marc?:  it does not matter how metadata is stored, as long as it is possible to get the data out of the database in any format appropriate for the occasion [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michele Newberry</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2214</link>
		<dc:creator>Michele Newberry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 22:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2214</guid>
		<description>As someone who has been working with MARC data since 1974 (I started my career as an OCLC trainer for SOLINET in the days of one format, Books, and a LOT fewer tags) and who knew or met many of the key players in the development of MARC, I just have to say that it is very easy to judge MARC from today&#039;s perspective.  However, it isn&#039;t fair to do that.  If you weren&#039;t working during that era, you might find it hard to imagine developing in an environment in which computing power was so low and storage costs were so high that we actually looked for ways to reclaim critical storage by deleting periods at the end of fields. ;-)

MARC was succinct.  Tags were short and fixed length.  Fixed fields and subfields were encoded for maximum meaning in minimal space.
 
MARC is a communications format designed to support the communication of cataloging information between what were, at the time, a very, very small number of entities - mostly LC and other national libraries, a few universities that were doing local development, and a nascent bibliographic utility industry -- all of which was geared to supporting printing catalog cards since online systems were still decades away.  MARC had to support the cataloging rules (pre-AACR2)and the realities of printed cards (thus names in inverted form and data to comply with LC filing rules).  The uptake of MARC for internal storage by ILS vendors was largely driven by the customer libraries&#039; RFPs and by the reality that computing power to do data conversion wasn&#039;t always available. It also vastly pre-dated any form of keyword indexing thus not allowing for normalized data.

It was also driven by the realities that catalogers found that MARC-speak facilitated communication among themselves; communication that might not have been possible if all the local systems had stored bibliographic data in  WDC.  Everyone was learning this new stuff all at once and trying to learn from the originators and each other.  If LC&#039;s 100, had been my &quot;Author&quot; data element, your &quot;Main entry-personal name&quot; and  OCLC&#039;s &quot;WDC-1&quot;, we would have had a much harder time sharing what we were learning and helping each other create all this standardized data. Referencing the 100 field short cut a lot of &quot;what are you talking about?&quot; in communications.  And remember, most of this communications was in person and in print format that took a lot longer to reach an audience since it pre-dated email, WWW, blogs, and Twitter by 30 years!

I fully agree that MARC has been very badly managed regarding the 773 field.  I&#039;ve felt this since the early 90s when we started loading journal article citation data and tried to create a workable TOC index to all our data -- parsing that field is just ridiculous and and would have been so much easier with some standard encoding much earlier.

Having said all this, I&#039;d fully support a new communications format and discussion of how we get there.  I just wish we could do it without making MARC the enemy - it has been a reliable workhorse that has been absolutely key to our getting where we are in both systems and magnitude of bibliographic data.  I do regret that the good features of other MARCs worldwide were not incorporated.  And not just worldwide.  The WLN system (long since absorbed by OCLC) had a 3rd indicator - which was wonderful for handling non-filing indicators for the subfield t of 7XX fields.  A loss we constantly decry when trying to integrate 245 fields with titles in author added entries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has been working with MARC data since 1974 (I started my career as an OCLC trainer for SOLINET in the days of one format, Books, and a LOT fewer tags) and who knew or met many of the key players in the development of MARC, I just have to say that it is very easy to judge MARC from today&#8217;s perspective.  However, it isn&#8217;t fair to do that.  If you weren&#8217;t working during that era, you might find it hard to imagine developing in an environment in which computing power was so low and storage costs were so high that we actually looked for ways to reclaim critical storage by deleting periods at the end of fields. <img src='http://commonplace.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>MARC was succinct.  Tags were short and fixed length.  Fixed fields and subfields were encoded for maximum meaning in minimal space.</p>
<p>MARC is a communications format designed to support the communication of cataloging information between what were, at the time, a very, very small number of entities &#8211; mostly LC and other national libraries, a few universities that were doing local development, and a nascent bibliographic utility industry &#8212; all of which was geared to supporting printing catalog cards since online systems were still decades away.  MARC had to support the cataloging rules (pre-AACR2)and the realities of printed cards (thus names in inverted form and data to comply with LC filing rules).  The uptake of MARC for internal storage by ILS vendors was largely driven by the customer libraries&#8217; RFPs and by the reality that computing power to do data conversion wasn&#8217;t always available. It also vastly pre-dated any form of keyword indexing thus not allowing for normalized data.</p>
<p>It was also driven by the realities that catalogers found that MARC-speak facilitated communication among themselves; communication that might not have been possible if all the local systems had stored bibliographic data in  WDC.  Everyone was learning this new stuff all at once and trying to learn from the originators and each other.  If LC&#8217;s 100, had been my &#8220;Author&#8221; data element, your &#8220;Main entry-personal name&#8221; and  OCLC&#8217;s &#8220;WDC-1&#8243;, we would have had a much harder time sharing what we were learning and helping each other create all this standardized data. Referencing the 100 field short cut a lot of &#8220;what are you talking about?&#8221; in communications.  And remember, most of this communications was in person and in print format that took a lot longer to reach an audience since it pre-dated email, WWW, blogs, and Twitter by 30 years!</p>
<p>I fully agree that MARC has been very badly managed regarding the 773 field.  I&#8217;ve felt this since the early 90s when we started loading journal article citation data and tried to create a workable TOC index to all our data &#8212; parsing that field is just ridiculous and and would have been so much easier with some standard encoding much earlier.</p>
<p>Having said all this, I&#8217;d fully support a new communications format and discussion of how we get there.  I just wish we could do it without making MARC the enemy &#8211; it has been a reliable workhorse that has been absolutely key to our getting where we are in both systems and magnitude of bibliographic data.  I do regret that the good features of other MARCs worldwide were not incorporated.  And not just worldwide.  The WLN system (long since absorbed by OCLC) had a 3rd indicator &#8211; which was wonderful for handling non-filing indicators for the subfield t of 7XX fields.  A loss we constantly decry when trying to integrate 245 fields with titles in author added entries.</p>
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		<title>By: Nancy Johnson</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2204</link>
		<dc:creator>Nancy Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 19:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2204</guid>
		<description>I understand the difference between marc and RDA.  As a cataloger though, what I see in RDA is such minimal information as to be totally worthless as to being able to distinguish authors with the same names or to distinguish variant editions.  To me RDA is a lot like the World Wide Web: it will offer much more information that will require a lot more time to get to what you want to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the difference between marc and RDA.  As a cataloger though, what I see in RDA is such minimal information as to be totally worthless as to being able to distinguish authors with the same names or to distinguish variant editions.  To me RDA is a lot like the World Wide Web: it will offer much more information that will require a lot more time to get to what you want to see.</p>
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		<title>By: bibliotecaria</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2202</link>
		<dc:creator>bibliotecaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 11:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2202</guid>
		<description>As a cataloger who deals with MARC on a daily basis (sometimes I even think in MARC code), I completely agree that it is outdated and needs to be replaced. But the problem lies in the fact that there is not yet any agreement about a replacement. Produce a replacement that is flexible, easy to use, fits the cataloging standards that we already have (so that legacy records are not lost), AND IS WIDELY ACCEPTED, and I&#039;m sure you would find many takers.

Until that comes along, MARC is still the best we&#039;ve got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a cataloger who deals with MARC on a daily basis (sometimes I even think in MARC code), I completely agree that it is outdated and needs to be replaced. But the problem lies in the fact that there is not yet any agreement about a replacement. Produce a replacement that is flexible, easy to use, fits the cataloging standards that we already have (so that legacy records are not lost), AND IS WIDELY ACCEPTED, and I&#8217;m sure you would find many takers.</p>
<p>Until that comes along, MARC is still the best we&#8217;ve got.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Coyle</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2199</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Coyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 00:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2199</guid>
		<description>The main role of MARC21 today is to allow commercial systems vendors to create a single system that can be used by any library. It has value because it is a standard -- and to replace it, we will need another standard. I think that the new standard should focus on data elements, not record format. If we standardize the data elements, then any record format can be used. MARC standardizes both (and not necessarily very well by today&#039;s technology) in a way that they cannot be easily separated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main role of MARC21 today is to allow commercial systems vendors to create a single system that can be used by any library. It has value because it is a standard &#8212; and to replace it, we will need another standard. I think that the new standard should focus on data elements, not record format. If we standardize the data elements, then any record format can be used. MARC standardizes both (and not necessarily very well by today&#8217;s technology) in a way that they cannot be easily separated.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter van Boheemen</title>
		<link>http://commonplace.net/2009/05/who-needs-marc/comment-page-1/#comment-2198</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter van Boheemen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 21:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://commonplace.net/?p=502#comment-2198</guid>
		<description>I do agree with Peter Schouten about two things. Marc is not a presentation format. Marc is invented to create a low storage solution. It was a low storage solution, especially in the ISO2709 packing it used to be exchanged on tape. (I spend too much time in the past struggling with it).

Marc is an exchange format, and not a very good one as explained in Roy&#039;s article. It can be easily created from a normalised data model. No problem. 
(you can do it in many different ways however, which is a bit of a problem :))

The big problem is that a new, better structured, exchange format is hard to define since many organizations can not convert to it. They have Marc as their native storage format. It is easy to convert to Marc. It is impossible to convert from Marc to something better.

Now we have MarcXMl and anybody who knows a litle bit about XML is Laughing Out Loud when looking at Marc XML. If you don&#039;t know about the history of Marc you wonder how anyone could even think of considering a schema like this.

Marc21 is widely accepted and that is the only good reason to use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do agree with Peter Schouten about two things. Marc is not a presentation format. Marc is invented to create a low storage solution. It was a low storage solution, especially in the ISO2709 packing it used to be exchanged on tape. (I spend too much time in the past struggling with it).</p>
<p>Marc is an exchange format, and not a very good one as explained in Roy&#8217;s article. It can be easily created from a normalised data model. No problem.<br />
(you can do it in many different ways however, which is a bit of a problem <img src='http://commonplace.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
<p>The big problem is that a new, better structured, exchange format is hard to define since many organizations can not convert to it. They have Marc as their native storage format. It is easy to convert to Marc. It is impossible to convert from Marc to something better.</p>
<p>Now we have MarcXMl and anybody who knows a litle bit about XML is Laughing Out Loud when looking at Marc XML. If you don&#8217;t know about the history of Marc you wonder how anyone could even think of considering a schema like this.</p>
<p>Marc21 is widely accepted and that is the only good reason to use it.</p>
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